Tuesday, 22.05.2012 - Welcome to web.com.na! Online: 9 Members, 74 Guests You are not logged in! Home | Forums   Forum Your last visit was: Tuesday, 22.05.2012, 10:37 [ Search Forum ] Forum Home : Namibia : General Displaying posts 1 - 25 of 64 total posts: 1 - 2 - 3 - >>> Post Views: 15061 2loxy, lenga2030 and the christian denominations Assisi Number Posts: 34 Last Post: 17.04.2012, 08:58 [ View User's Posts ] Sunday, 01. January 2012 at 12:50 @ 2loxy and lenga2030 you are doing very well over at *proud satanist*. i am learning a lot from you. i think you need to have a civilized and better structured discussion on differences between christian denominations. for example: why do some churches baptize infants and others not? why do some denominations do confirmation while others do not? why do some baptize by immersion and others by sprinkling? is baptism necessary for salvation? and the lord’s supper, is it a literal or a symbolic body of Christ. is the lord’s supper necessary for salvation? you can add some more topics as the discussion progresses and more posters join in. i will not participate but i will follow this discussion with keen interest because i want to learn more. unfortunately these forums are not moderated otherwise i would have volunteered to moderate the discussion. Re: 2loxy, lenga2030 and the christian denominations Lenga2030 Number Posts: 1696 Last Post: 25.04.2012, 19:11 [ View User's Posts ] Tuesday, 03. January 2012 at 16:21 Hi Assisi, I was not aware of this thread. Thank you for notifying us. This would be a very good point-by-point discussion. To set the ball rolling I would comment as follow: Q: “why do some churches baptize infants and others not?” A: It is because some denominations do not see baptism as a salvation issue. Therefore, they reason that it is not urgent; it can wait until a child has reached the age of reason. Q: “why do some denominations do confirmation while others do not?” A: Because follow the Bible 8 (Acts 8:12, 14-17) while others do not. Q: “why do some baptize by immersion and others by sprinkling?” A: I am not aware of any denomination that baptize by sprinkling; maybe you mean by infusion. However, I do consider all three -- immersion, aspersion, infusion -- as valid modes of baptism. Q: “is baptism necessary for salvation?” A: Yes! Q: “and the lord’s supper, is it a literal or a symbolic body of Christ.” A: Literal. Q: “is the lord’s supper necessary for salvation?” A: Yes! Re: 2loxy, lenga2030 and the christian denominations 2loxy Number Posts: 96 Last Post: 20.03.2012, 11:50 [ View User's Posts ] Wednesday, 04. January 2012 at 10:01 Wow ...eish i just saw this now Asissi....lol....Lenga weetelange...hahahahaha...but i would like to contribute what i can... well,Assisi...there is a biblical pattern to anything concerning God...on baptising babies...there is nowhere in the bible where an infant was baptised(greek-baptizi,meaning complete immersion)...they were dedicated unto God in the temple and circumsised at 8days old(boys)...which was the Jewish law and the Abrahamic covenant requirement...Jesus himself was dedicated and circumsised,He is Jew...He got baptised by John at age 30 and got filled with the Holy Spirit...nowhere is confirmation mentioned....thats what i know...nothing about sprinkling either why denominations do the stf diferently ...its because of doctrines...its sad,but christianity is so divided because of difrent beliefs...tho its the same God we claim to worship...we reason difrently...it ought not to be so ,but it is...thats why there is a bunch of contradictions amoungs christians... baptism is not an option for a christian its a must,its a total separation from the world,a sign of dying with Christ,burried with Him,and rising again to reign,by the way the man that has received salvation is the man that is baptised...if one is baptised without having been born again by the Spirit of God..its merely a swim...its the Spirit of God in us that bears witness with our spirits that we are the sons of GOD...John the baptist came with the message of repenting,he baptised in water...but he bore witness of one greater than him,whose shoes he is not worthy to untie,read the gospel of John... Literal and symbolic...the finished work on the cross...what happened at first communion was a symbol of what happenned to Jesus on the cross...hence today we do so in rememberance of Him...He is the bread of life(figuratively)...He aint no bread...He is a man... wether the Lords supper is necessary for salvation...idk...lets wait for Jesus to answer that ...they say if you are a christian you will do christian things...going to church don't get you saved..but saved people do go to church...christianity is not a lifestyle but it has a lifestyle...hope u get what am trying to say Assisi but why are you not participating Assisi??....i would like to hear what you have to say ...i want to learn from you too dude [Post edited by: 2loxy on 04/1/12 10:42 AM] Re: 2loxy, lenga2030 and the christian denominations Lenga2030 Number Posts: 1696 Last Post: 25.04.2012, 19:11 [ View User's Posts ] Wednesday, 04. January 2012 at 11:16 Hi Assisi et al, In one of my previous posts in the “Proud Satanist” thread I clearly stated what I learned in my encounters with sectarian heretics over the years. They all behave the same way: 1. They can not keep to one topic at a time; 2. When asked a question, instead of replying they would rather deliver long sermons, talking about things that are not even related to the question that was asked; 3. Their long sermons are normally formless ramblings; 4. They are all quick to equate themselves with Christ (you oppose what they say = you oppose Christ); 5. When every thing else fail, they disappear into thin air. That is exactly what we see 2loxy doing here. I will confront 2loxy head-on and show how mistaken he really is. I do this to the benefit of those who are following this debate; 2loxy himself seems lost so much so that he is no longer able to accept the truth. 2loxy states that “there is a biblical pattern to anything concerning God”. Good! Now I challenge him to show me in the Bible where it states that “there is a Biblical pattern to anything concerning God”. He can not, you see. He was knocked down in the very first round! More deadly blows will follow in the second round! Re: 2loxy, lenga2030 and the christian denominations Lenga2030 Number Posts: 1696 Last Post: 25.04.2012, 19:11 [ View User's Posts ] Wednesday, 04. January 2012 at 12:02 2LOXY: “... on baptising babies ... there is nowhere in the bible where an infant was baptized.” MY COMMENT: 2loxy sounds more like a dude who kept saying dinner is not real because every time he is invited to dinner all he finds is either rice and beef or macaroni and fried chicken. So he concluded that dinner is just a myth. That is exactly what 2loxy is doing here. He does not see infant baptism because he does not take the Bible as one single message from one single source for one single purpose. He sees Christian faith as individualistic, not as collective. For him Christian faith is narrowed down to “me, my Bible and my Savior” – end of the story. But we know that that is wrong. Christians are a chosen people; a holy nation (1 Peter 2:9) just like the Jews before them. Circumcision was the entrance sign for the Jews; baptism is the entrance sign for Christians. Abraham was circumcised as an adult, but his children were circumcised on the 8th day after birth. The first Christians were baptized as adults, but their children are baptized as soon as possible. When you see Christianity as a “holy nation” you will easily understand why baptism MUST include babies and infants. Like Joshua, when the head of the family accepts Jesus he does so in the pattern of “I and my family”. That is why we see in the Bible entire households being baptized (Acts 16:15; Acts 16:33, 1 Corinthians 1:16). 2loxy will most probably tell you there were no children in all those three houses. How strange then that only people without children were converting to Christianity! If the baptism infants is wrong, the 2loxy must tell us when this “error” was introduced into the church and also tell us why nobody protested. For the first 1 500 years of Christianity we see infants being baptized, yet we see no one protesting, why? End of round 2 … and 2loxy looks very bad. Re: 2loxy, lenga2030 and the christian denominations Lenga2030 Number Posts: 1696 Last Post: 25.04.2012, 19:11 [ View User's Posts ] Wednesday, 04. January 2012 at 13:55 2LOXY: “greek-baptizi, meaning complete immersion) ...” MY COMMENT: When 2loxy, whose English language skills are so unquestionably poor, suddenly starts presenting himself as a master of the Greek language, then you must know that that there is something very, very wrong. Having said that, the claim that “baptizo” always means immersion and its twin claim that baptism is only properly administered by immersion in water, are all false. Those presenting the argument may be honest and the argument itself may seem impressive at first glance, but at a closer look an ugly fallacy is exposed. While the word “baptizo” is the most trusted weapon in their arsenal, this weapon is in reality so weak that the Oshiwambo-speaking people would describe it as “omukonda woshihati”. First, we see the same word baptizo in Acts 2 when God baptizes His people with the Holy Spirit, but we know that He did so by pouring not by immersion. Second, Ezekiel 36:25-26 predicts New Testament baptism as follows: “Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you.” Third, there is simply no way the first great multitudes of believers were immersed, both those who converted on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:41) and those who converted a few days later (Acts 4:4). If baptism by pouring and by sprinkling is wrong why do we see it practices at the time of the Apostles in the 1st century (and the apostles did not complain)? Once again credobaptists are exposed as not only ignorant of Scripture, but also ignorant of Church history. End of round three … and we can already see that the helpers at the red corner (2loxy’s corner) are panicking. Re: 2loxy, lenga2030 and the christian denominations Lenga2030 Number Posts: 1696 Last Post: 25.04.2012, 19:11 [ View User's Posts ] Wednesday, 04. January 2012 at 14:19 2LOXY: “I was "confirmed" without a clue as to what I was doing ... because I was not born again, got no Holy Spirit, no clue what salvation is, i did it as a duty/rule/regulation of "a christian" MY COMMENT: That does not prove confirmation wrong; that simply proves you were poorly taught or you did not take Christian faith seriously. 2LOXY: “confirmation and baptism without CHRIST dwelling in the heart of man is void.” MY COMMENT: Quote for me where the Bible says that. You know you can not. So, once again you are comfortable with extra (or even anti) biblical teachings of men. Secondly, those who administer confirmation have no ability of reading people’s hearts, but we at least know that faith in Christ is a requirement for baptism even in the Lutheran church where you were baptized. We also know that confirmation in the Lutheran church is preceded by an extended study of the Word of God. If after all that, you were still clueless about what was going on, then you yourself are to blame. 2LOXY: “why denominations do the stf diferently ... its because of doctrines ... its sad, but christianity is so divided because of difrent beliefs ... tho its the same God we claim to worship ... we reason difrently ... it ought not to be so, but it is ... thats why there is a bunch of contradictions amoungs Christians ... “baptism is not an option for a christian its a must, its a total separation from the world, a sign of dying with Christ, burried with Him, and rising again to reign, by the way the man that has received salvation is the man that is baptized ... if one is baptised without having been born again by the Spirit of God ... its merely a swim ... its the Spirit of God in us that bears witness with our spirits that we are the sons of GOD ... John the baptist came with the message of repenting, he baptised in water ... but he bore witness of one greater than him, whose shoes he is not worthy to untie, read the gospel of John...” MY COMMENT: I have no comment, partly because I can not really understand what is going on in that part of your sermon! Re: 2loxy, lenga2030 and the christian denominations 2loxy Number Posts: 96 Last Post: 20.03.2012, 11:50 [ View User's Posts ] Wednesday, 04. January 2012 at 15:35 was away ...lets see...haa u at it again lenga...so you want to tell me you can be a christian without the bible.??..u were suppose to use common sense there...show me where babie were baptised in the bible Lenga,plllzzzz see u don't frighten me with ur sensesless analysis,u nt close to defining me at all,you opinion of donkey years experiences are your alone...u have met ur match,u can't accept that somebody maybe twice ur age has taken you head-on... [Post edited by: 2loxy on 04/1/12 3:41 PM] Re: 2loxy, lenga2030 and the christian denominations 2loxy Number Posts: 96 Last Post: 20.03.2012, 11:50 [ View User's Posts ] Wednesday, 04. January 2012 at 16:00 how old was Ishmael when he was baptised Lenga?? 8 days,who told you?lol, i don't know what bible you read but mine say the lad was 13,Isaac,yes... you confuse baptism with dedication,which are two diffrent things ...WHAT DOES A BABY KNOW?? who is a christian hano mboli? you know its funy how you want everything out of the bible yet you yourself cant even give any reference,that clearly say babies ought to be baptised...blah blah blah Jesus was dedicated as a baby,and got babtised at age 30....why????Luke 2:21-24... Re: 2loxy, lenga2030 and the christian denominations Lenga2030 Number Posts: 1696 Last Post: 25.04.2012, 19:11 [ View User's Posts ] Wednesday, 04. January 2012 at 16:31 Round four … and 2loxy already looks tired. I wonder whether he will survive this one ... 2LOXY: “on the Lords supper ... i would say its symbolic and truthful.” MY COMMENT: That is truth and error placed side by side. Lord’s Supper is nowhere said to be symbolic in the Bible. Look at the following biblical facts: - Jesus is the sacrificial lamb of the New Covenant (1 Corinthians 5:7); - Under the Old Covenant the sacrificial lamb was eaten literally, not symbolically (Exodus 12:8, 46, Leviticus 6:17-19); - Under the New Covenant the sacrificial lamb must also be eaten literally, not symbolically (John 6:53); - To eat someone symbolically is to harm him, (Isaiah 49:26). 2LOXY: “He is the bread of life, his blood washed our sins away ... and His sacrifice made us fruits of redemption ... hence without Him, we can not be saved ... He said that whenever we eat and drink the communion, we should do it in rememberance of Him ... its a reminder/proclaimation of what He has done for us ..." 1COR 11:23.” MY COMMENT: Once again 2loxy resorts to the typical either/or fallacy. According to him it is a remembrance, therefore it can not be Jesus’ body. The truth is, however, it is BOTH a memorial AND His true body: “my body is true food and my blood is true drink” says Jesus. But 2loxy can not believe such an “hard saying”. His denomination demands the rejection of Jesus’ own words – they are the modern-day disciples who find Jesus’ teachings too hard to believe (cf. John 6:52, 66). 2LOXY: “For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me. 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes." NIV MY COMMENT: One must be totally blind to quote the Bible so correctly, yet reject what it says. The Bible says clearly “this is my body”, but 2loxy says “no ways!” 2LOXY: “wether the Lords supper is necessary for salvation ... idk ... lets wait for Jesus to answer that” MY COMMENT: Jesus already provided the answer: “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.” (John 6:53-55, NAB) Do I hear 2loxy shouting “that is not true; that can not be true!” 2LOXY: “they say if you are a christian you will do christian things ...” MY COMMENT: Believing what Jesus said is the most Christian thing to do. 2LOXY: “going to church don't get you saved. but saved people do go to church ... christianity is not a lifestyle but it has a lifestyle ... hope u get what am trying to say Assisi.” MY COMMENT: That is so true I even wonder why 2loxy gets the rest of the story so wrong! I will excuse the use of word “saved” for now, because 2loxy simply can not get it. He concentrates on what one single text of the Bible says and then ignores the rest. The fact that the Bible says we “are saved”, “are being saved” and “hope to be saved”, seems to have no meaning for him. But 2loxy knows better than what he is admitting here. He knows that some people who boast of being “saved” may end up in hell. But then, he, like Calvin, may retort that it is because they were never really saved in the first place. Ah, some who say they are saved are not really saved (just hoping to be saved like I say) … and we all will only find out at the moment of judgment. Even Paul never boasted of being saved … he always said he hopes he will be saved. Re: 2loxy, lenga2030 and the christian denominations 2loxy Number Posts: 96 Last Post: 20.03.2012, 11:50 [ View User's Posts ] Wednesday, 04. January 2012 at 16:38 its baptizo...i said nothing about you writing "REACHNESS" WHEN IT OUGHT TO BE RICHNESS in a previous post u wrote lenga...did not diss you either...well you ain't english,i aint english...nobody in here is english...thats settled,we bound to err in the language that we have compromised to use just so we atleast can communicate... I did not say am a master of greek...that's your definition ...well,aint moved by you ,not at all,you tryin to intimidate me...you gna have to try harder sir...you aint close... well John baptised people unto repentance,hence he dipped the in water...the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the new creation is a baptism cos we are dipped into it,from the strand of the hair to the tip ot the toes,down deep to the bone marrow...he is not in parts he takes up full residence in the human body...lol can you comprehend that sir?? lets settle this... so that means you believe in the sprinkling of water on the forehead to mean baptism for a new creation??...so when you talk about immersion here...do you mean "instant"? so you are asuming that those new converts were not baptised at all?? lets use common sense please...one has to be taught and raise up in God,be fed spiritualy...or are you saying there was no futher feeding of the word unto them by the apostles...there is waht we call "follow up",i don't believe it came up now...get what am saying? i remember you saying Paul was not batpised after his conversion,it seems you run away with half truths... get to the root of what the baptsim of John meant .... well you are bad loser and seemingly a bully ,cos apart from failing to admit that you are losing...your dissing is way too horrible/nasty/bad attitude,....i don't find it funny,so forgive me if i forgot to laugh... out of respest fo u...i wont retaliate...thats too low of a level for me to stoop at..am bigger than that [Post edited by: 2loxy on 04/1/12 5:23 PM] Re: 2loxy, lenga2030 and the christian denominations 2loxy Number Posts: 96 Last Post: 20.03.2012, 11:50 [ View User's Posts ] Wednesday, 04. January 2012 at 17:22 well ...let me get this...i doubt you were born in a house of born-again folks....or did you?... i did not have that privelledge of...won't lie about it...the little they knew about God they taugh me...but i sought more than they could offer...heard about them folks zelous about God without knowledge...i would say it was like that...because until a man is in Christ Jesus...you can not fully know what God is all about...can you?? aahh...you knew...fortunate you :)...well you see...you can do the "right thing"...and still be wrong...thats were hypocrasy comes in...it took me finding Jesus to admit all that i knew was vanity without Him being my personal saviour and Lord...being saved without the blood of Jesus,does not work...you said so yourself that christianity without the Holy Ghost is not christianity rite...well thats were we came from... one thing I have notice is that you seem to live in denial...aaahhh you have saved all you life..so you would not know what being religious is like...keeping up appearence...counts...i have seen people saam lewe in a congregation,and well for them...thats normal...drinking,clubing,fornicating,commiting adultery etc...but they "christians" anyway...cos they were 'baptised" as babies...see not everybody get it as you do...but who do you blame for this misinformation?the pastor?parents?...if we have the bible to read for ourselves and seek the wisdon and understanding of God ??... a man in bondage envies a free man...hence he either treis to keep him there or get him into it... ''''2LOXY: “confirmation and baptism without CHRIST dwelling in the heart of man is void.” MY COMMENT: Quote for me where the Bible says that. You know you can not. So, once again you are comfortable with extra (or even anti) biblical teachings of men. Secondly, those who administer confirmation have no ability of reading people’s hearts, but we at least know that faith in Christ is a requirement for baptism even in the Lutheran church where you were baptized. We also know that confirmation in the Lutheran church is preceded by an extended study of the Word of God. If after all that, you were still clueless about ..."" Me: you livw in denial...lenga...the confirmation of one being a christian is an aproval by the word...we are born of the word of God...who is Jesus,He can only confirm you in him if you are in him...not outside..hence He ought to dwell in the heart of a believer to confirm he is of Christ...dat difficult to pick up??...common sense again ,plllzzz****** would confirming some one who is not born again useful?what is he confirming..for all we know some people did it as a duty to "please" their parents,and want to get it over and done with...they dont even have the witness of the Holy Spirit in them...of does you bible not mention that the Spirit bears witness with our spirits that we are the sons of God..??... """"2LOXY: “why denominations do the stf diferently ... its because of doctrines ... its sad, but christianity is so divided because of difrent beliefs ... tho its the same God we claim to worship ... we reason difrently ... it ought not to be so, but it is ... thats why there is a bunch of contradictions amoungs Christians ... “baptism is not an option for a christian its a must, its a total separation from the world, a sign of dying with Christ, burried with Him, and rising again to reign, by the way the man that has received salvation is the man that is baptized ... if one is baptised without having been born again by the Spirit of God ... its merely a swim ... its the Spirit of God in us that bears witness with our spirits that we are the sons of GOD ... John the baptist came with the message of repenting, he baptised in water ... but he bore witness of one greater than him, whose shoes he is not worthy to untie, read the gospel of John...” MY COMMENT: I have no comment, partly because I can not really understand what is going on in that part of your sermon!""""" welll,I did not expect you to understand either... what i meant in short....this is basically what you do...you critisise fellow bretherens...why,cos you were programmed to...why? thats what you best at>>>...you critisesd pastors here,who you don't even know personally...but you all "christians"...why? because you don't agree with them??why?you were/are taught diffrently....don't tell you believe what they believe ...cos you don't...IT ALL COMES DOWN TO DOCTRINE.... the few years i have live...unlike you sir...i have noticed that the christians fight each other...rather than being unified in Christ...they criticise each other,intimidate other...try to uphold one denomination above the other...and make all sorts of comparisons among themselves,which is foolishness(....and they just blal blah blah...but JESUS IS COMING FOR ONE BRIDE ONLY...let that sink Re: 2loxy, lenga2030 and the christian denominations Lenga2030 Number Posts: 1696 Last Post: 25.04.2012, 19:11 [ View User's Posts ] Wednesday, 04. January 2012 at 17:27 Hi 2loxy, Your ignorance is showing up all over the place. It is time to start teaching you. 2LOXY: “was away ... lets see ... haa u at it again lenga ... so you want to tell me you can be a christian without the bible?” MY RESPONSE: Yes! There was no Bible when 3 000 converted on Pentecost Day … and they were true Christians, weren’t they? 300 years after Christ there was still no Bible, yet Christianity existed. Please, do not come here exhibiting total lack of knowledge. 2LOXY: “u were suppose to use common sense there ...” MY RESPONSE: And using common sense you would see clearly that Christianity existed before there was a Bible. That is so common knowledge that i wonder how you do not know this. Okay, let me ask you this: was there Christians in Ephesus before Paul wrote his letter to the Ephesians? (Say "yes!") Common sense dictates, then, that the Bible could not exist before the books of the Bible were written, right? Re: 2loxy, lenga2030 and the christian denominations Lenga2030 Number Posts: 1696 Last Post: 25.04.2012, 19:11 [ View User's Posts ] Wednesday, 04. January 2012 at 17:30 2LOXY: show me where babie were baptised in the bible Lenga, plllzzzz.” MY RESPONSE: Is this the same 2loxy who a day or two ago said I should not consider something as nonsense simply because it is not in the Bible? Yes, he is! Okay then! Now, where does the Bible say everything MUST be in the Bible? Nowhere! 2loxy is so blind he can not even see how he is contradicting himself: On one hand he believes that we should only believe what is in the Bible, but on the other hand the Bible does nowhere say we should believe only what is in the Bible. 2LOXY: “see u don't frighten me with ur sensesless analysis,” MY RESPONSE: Thank you! But the lurkers may start doubting your capacity if you can not even refute “senseless analysis”. 2LOXY: “u nt close to defining me at all, you opinion of donkey years experiences are your alone...” MY RESPONSE: Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha … unable to address the issues, 2loxy finds a substitute in name-calling. 2LOXY: “u have met ur match, u can't accept that somebody maybe twice ur age has taken you head-on...” MY RESPONSE: I like that when young people take their Christian faith seriously. Let us debate dude. You may end up learning one thing or two. 2LOXY: “how old was Ishmael when he was baptised Lenga? 8 days, who told you? lol, i don't know what bible you read but mine say the lad was 13, Isaac, yes...” MY RESPONSE: According to you, only Ismael and Isaac are Abraham’s children, therefore anyone talking about Abraham’s children must be talking about those two. How wrong! Genesis 17:1-14: “When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said: I am God the Almighty. Walk in my presence and be blameless. Between you and me I will establish my covenant, and I will multiply you exceedingly.” Abram fell face down and God said to him: For my part, here is my covenant with you: you are to become the father of a multitude of nations. No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I am making you the father of a multitude of nations. I will make you exceedingly fertile; I will make nations of you; kings will stem from you. I will maintain my covenant between me and you and your descendants after you throughout the ages as an everlasting covenant, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. I will give to you and to your descendants after you the land in which you are now residing as aliens, the whole land of Canaan, as a permanent possession; and I will be their God.” God said to Abraham: For your part, you and your descendants after you must keep my covenant throughout the ages. This is the covenant between me and you and your descendants after you that you must keep: every male among you shall be circumcised. Circumcise the flesh of your foreskin. That will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. Throughout the ages, every male among you, when he is eight days old, shall be circumcised, including houseborn slaves and those acquired with money from any foreigner who is not of your descendants. Yes, both the houseborn slaves and those acquired with money must be circumcised. Thus my covenant will be in your flesh as an everlasting covenant. If a male is uncircumcised, that is, if the flesh of his foreskin has not been cut away, such a one will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant. Re: 2loxy, lenga2030 and the christian denominations Lenga2030 Number Posts: 1696 Last Post: 25.04.2012, 19:11 [ View User's Posts ] Wednesday, 04. January 2012 at 17:44 2LOXY: “you confuse baptism with dedication, which are two diffrent things ...” MY RESPONSE: Not at all, I do not confuse the two. 2LOXY: “WHAT DOES A BABY KNOW?” MY RESPONSE: To become a member of God’s chosen people knowledge is not a pre-requisite. That is why the Jews could become Jews 8 days after they were born. I ask you again: if babies are not to be baptized why do we see them being baptized at the time of the apostles and why did the apostles not complain like they complained about other errors? Does that not suggest to you that there is nothing wrong with baptizing babies? By the way, saying babies do not need baptism is tantamount to saying babies do not need Jesus. 2LOXY: “who is a christian hano mboli?” MY RESPONSE: A Christian is a person who believes in the person and the teachings of Jesus Christ (I know what you will say hereafter and I am waiting). 2LOXY: “you know its funy how you want everything out of the bible yet you yourself cant even give any reference, that clearly say babies ought to be baptized ...” MY RESPONSE: It is because, unlike you, I do not believe in sola scriptura. So when I demand that you provide Biblical proof I am actually measuring you using your own criteria. If you still believe that something MUST BE in the Bible, otherwise it should not to be believed and/or practiced, then stop complaining and provide Biblical proof for every claim you make here. The bible says baptism is for all human beings. That is a pity you do not consider babies as human beings. Re: 2loxy, lenga2030 and the christian denominations Lenga2030 Number Posts: 1696 Last Post: 25.04.2012, 19:11 [ View User's Posts ] Wednesday, 04. January 2012 at 18:09 2LOXY: “its baptize ... i said nothing about you writing "REACHNESS" WHEN IT OUGHT TO BE RICHNESS in a previous post u wrote lenga...” MY RESPONSE: Hey, the heat of the debate was getting at me man. I discovered the spelling mistake but by then it was too late and I was no longer allowed to edit the post. Sorry for the inconvenience. By the way, I don’t think the Greek word is baptizi. I think it is baptizo. 2LOXY: “did not diss you either ... well you ain't english, i aint English ... nobody in here is English ... thats settled,” MY RESPONSE: I agree 100%. But there is something more to be said. For one to claim to clearly understand Scriptures one need to know the language. If you read the Bible in Oshindonga or in Oshikwanyama (and you claim to be able to understand what you read) you need to have more than a basic knowledge of those two languages. Same goes for English and Greek – or any other language for that matter. By the way, I was just wondering about your Greek language skills after you tried to bring up Greek as if our English was not bad enough. 2LOXY: “we bound to err in the language that we have compromised to use just so we atleast can communicate...” MY RESPONSE: Sure! 2LOXY: “I did not say am a master of greek ... that's your definition ... “ MY RESPONSE: I was just sitting here and visualizing you thinking “the English versions of the Bible were not done properly, so I have to go back to the original Greek”. 2LOXY: “well, aint moved by you, not at all, MY RESPONSE: No problem! I am not necessarily here to move you. I am here to present the lurkers with an alternative (a counterpoint) to your errors. 2LOXY: “you tryin to intimidate me ... you gna have to try harder sir ... you aint close ...” MY RESPONSE: No, no … I am not trying to intimidate you. I am enjoying the discussion and can not afford to loose you, otherwise who else can take me on like you? LOL! I am really sorry if you get the impression that I am trying to intimidate. Re: 2loxy, lenga2030 and the christian denominations Lenga2030 Number Posts: 1696 Last Post: 25.04.2012, 19:11 [ View User's Posts ] Wednesday, 04. January 2012 at 18:59 2LOXY: “well John baptised people unto repentance, hence he dipped the in water ...” MY RESPONSE: The baptism administered by John was not a Christian baptism. So that one is out! 2LOXY: “the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the new creation is a baptism cos we are dipped into it, from the strand of the hair to the tip ot the toes, down deep to the bone marrow ... he is not in parts he takes up full residence in the human body ... lol can you comprehend that sir? MY RESPONSE: You are telling me something very strange. You are practically saying that the efficacy of the Grace of God depends on the amount of water used in baptism. Uh! Let me ask you again (maybe one good day you will find time to answer these questions): 1. If immersion is the only correct mode of baptism why was Apostle Paul not immersed? 2. If immersion is the only correct mode of baptism, why do we find other modes of baptism being used at apostolic times (yet the apostles did not complain)? 3. On to your much-loved common sense: where were the 3 000 Pentecost day converts immersed? I think you will have to do more than simply bringing up the crumbs that fall off your pastor table. 2LOXY: “lets settle this ... so that means you believe in the sprinkling of water on the forehead to mean baptism for a new creation?” MY RESPONSE: Yes, I do believe Ezekiel 36:25-26 among others. Uh, was that not an egg in your face 2loxy? 2LOXY: “so when you talk about immersion here ... do you mean "instant"? MY RESPONSE: What is the difference? 2LOXY: “so you are asuming that those new converts were not baptised at all?” MY RESPONSE: I am assuming nothing my dear. We agree they were baptized, but you have a problem because in Jerusalem there is nowhere where 3 000 people could be immersed at once. You will have to “go beyond what is written” and try to say “ aaye, maybe … they were baptized during a follow-up some other day … at another locality”. You see, that is how deceived people lock the door from inside to make sure no one gets them out of their feel-good caves. Like a minor who refuses to get up in the morning because she doesn’t want to disturb a good dream. 2LOXY: “lets use common sense please ... one has to be taught and raise up in God, be fed spiritually ...” MY RESPONSE: True! 2LOXY: “or are you saying there was no futher feeding of the word unto them by the apostles ...” MY RESPONSE: The Bible says they were baptized that day (Acts 2:41) … “follow-up” is something you are forced to add to scripture to salvage your erroneous belief. 2LOXY: “there is waht we call "follow up" MY RESPONSE: I am aware of your follow-ups, but I will not ask you where they are in the Bible. What we see happening after baptism is confirmation (Acts 8:14-17), yet you reject that. 2LOXY: “i don't believe it came up now ... get what am saying?” MY RESPONSE: I think I get what you are saying. 2LOXY: “i remember you saying Paul was not batpised after his conversion, it seems you run away with half truths...” MY RESPONSE: Yes, some one is running away with half truths, but that is definitely not me. I did not say Paul was not baptized; I said Paul was not immersed. So, you lied about me, what now? Are you honest enough to apologize? 2LOXY: “get to the root of what the baptsim of John meant ...” MY RESPONSE: We are talking about Christian baptism. John’s baptism was not Christian. That is why those baptized by John were later given Christian baptism. 2LOXY: “well you are bad loser and seemingly a bully,” MY RESPONSE: Really? I never expected you would promote me so quickly! 2LOXY: “cos apart from failing to admit that you are losing ... your dissing is way too horrible/nasty/bad attitude ... i don't find it funny, so forgive me if i forgot to laugh ...” MY RESPONSE: You are forgiven! 2LOXY: “out of respest fo u ... i wont retaliate ...” MY RESPONSE: I really appreciate that! 2LOXY: “thats too low of a level for me to stoop at … am bigger than that.” MY RESPONSE: Good! Re: 2loxy, lenga2030 and the christian denominations 2loxy Number Posts: 96 Last Post: 20.03.2012, 11:50 [ View User's Posts ] Wednesday, 04. January 2012 at 19:15 Whatever man...its obvious u tryin to...looks like no bull ever entered ur kraal ... I do knw its BAPTIZO dude...u runing out of ideas mbela,coz u scratchin everywhere man...so my english is bad,am namlish and proud... Re: 2loxy, lenga2030 and the christian denominations 2loxy Number Posts: 96 Last Post: 20.03.2012, 11:50 [ View User's Posts ] Wednesday, 04. January 2012 at 20:12 Lol...i knw JESUS said that...get bk to the original post dude...dn't take the question out of context...jst to seem smarter ...would a person who has never taken comunion,and lets say he is in a deathbed,got born again 5 minutes b4 dying go to hell? I thnk Assisi meant smthn like dat,acording to my understanding...u do'nt access isues frm difrent perspective...I view isues thru the eyes of the unbeliever and a first time hearer...so i am bold enough to admit i do nt hav a definite answer if i rly dn't...some questions are too high for us...i've setld that...buh u have a definite answer to everythn ,dn't u...there is smthn u nt getin ere...when i said the Lords supper is literal and symbolic...its cos it is factual and symbolic...the first passover was symbolic of Jesus's redemption work which was yet to come...THE COMMUNION IS A REMINDER DUDE...whch part is dificult for u there?put the pieces together... Re: 2loxy, lenga2030 and the christian denominations 2loxy Number Posts: 96 Last Post: 20.03.2012, 11:50 [ View User's Posts ] Wednesday, 04. January 2012 at 21:10 Honestly ...i admit we learn nt only frm smart people,our learning opportunities wud thus b limited,we learn frm any1...so lets see what u gt...u have limited the bible... the scrol frm whch Jesus read in the temple ...same Isiah u read today...and so they did nt knw who Jesus was,they rejected Him coz they have "read" the scriptures,they new what it meant to be coequal to God...so there must have been smthn to stdy there...d u thnk Simeon and Anna knew nothing about scriptures.? Coz u seem to say the recorded word aint needed...thats like saying you cn pass ur exams without ever having to study...now u seem to be a gud historian...wel weigh the grace for them that did nt have the bible and wit our present day grace...wel there is a reason we are born in the era with the bible dn't u thnk,or r u telin me that like them,u dn't nid 1 today to feed on the word as a christian? U c i was specific,i askd "u",...thn wht d u do?u divert it,yet u r the same person who said God does change things,he has planned long ago that u wud b in an era that has the bible...ouch!! Or was that ur excuse for nt readin ur bible...i understand there are persecuted saints today,bt the thng is,they have been birthed into christianity thru scriptures...or dn't u knw that?tho they have been told,the word is stil the origin of their faith in Christ...og man,how far and deep do u thnk b4 u write? Re: 2loxy, lenga2030 and the christian denominations 2loxy Number Posts: 96 Last Post: 20.03.2012, 11:50 [ View User's Posts ] Wednesday, 04. January 2012 at 21:34 Hahahaha,so u cn ask 4 scriptre rfrence and i cn't?the thng is u dn't have proof...so u divert frm the matter wit ur litle "dramas"...ja ne ...i do knw what it means to be the seed of ABRAHAM,i knw the story about the man...the point is u should be specific...the fact is u erred...like i said ,am nt the only1 u talkin to,write to the one who does nt knw about the promises of the covenant or who Abraham is...reason outside the box of ur finite mind...or d u have an infinite mind u want to say? U too proud to admit ur errors,cos ths is "teritory" isn't it?u al over the place, up in everybody's face tryina prove urself right and them wrong al the time...is that a hobby?... breathin steam ?lol [Post edited by: 2loxy on 05/1/12 5:32 AM] Re: 2loxy, lenga2030 and the christian denominations 2loxy Number Posts: 96 Last Post: 20.03.2012, 11:50 [ View User's Posts ] Wednesday, 04. January 2012 at 22:32 Haa and again,u never cease to amaze me...seems u gt a bit of a memory problem...u r excused...so we al knw Jesus had no sin...bt why did he go to John anyway?...and why JOHN 1:30-33? I see baptism of water and Spirit by two people...if Jesus honored the baptism of John...and u r?who does a christian folow after? ...thats the problem with the limitations of the mind...am talking about spirit baptism and u talkin about water,see why i yawn so much?...mayb u dn't knw tht the spirit goes dat deep...thnk of the bones of dead ELISHA raisin up a man frm the dead...what was it the bones that could that? ....Acts 9:17-18...the is mention of being filled with the Holy Spirit(JESUS'S BAPTISM)...and Paul rose and was BAPTISED(JOHN's).!!KJV... no apologies to u frm me on that 1,u spake as tho u the only1 wit a bible...bt u do admit the water baptism cme wit John ayt(john 1:31-33) and the other wit Jesus...?so u telin me repentance is nt vital today 4 a christian?coz as far as i hav observd,baptism is a combination of immersion and fire of the spirit...the christian needs them both...u seem to fgt tht...or dn't knw that...whcheva... Why u keep sayin them people in acts were nt baptisd puzles me...what cmes first for a christian,hearing the gospel or baptism,., both r vital rite?...nw u keep mvin in that circle ,aint getin in no mre,coz the mre u bring it up the mre u reveal the area of darknes u have regardin baptism... Re: 2loxy, lenga2030 and the christian denominations Lenga2030 Number Posts: 1696 Last Post: 25.04.2012, 19:11 [ View User's Posts ] Thursday, 05. January 2012 at 07:39 One thing I am noticing here is that you have pushed any pretense of addressing the topics at hand and you are now either preaching or launching ad hominem attacks. I understand this thread was meant to address clearly defined issues. 2LOXY: “well ... let me get this ... i doubt you were born in a house of born-again folks....or did you? MY RESPONSE: Should I be worried about your doubts? By the way, did you not imply at the other thread that one has to move from one denomination to another before one is eventually born again? 2LOXY: “ i did not have that privelledge of ... won't lie about it ... the little they knew about God they taugh me ...” MY RESPONSE: Good! 2LOXY: “but i sought more than they could offer...” MY RESPONSE: And I can see you do not yet have enough. The Bible is spot-on (2 Timothy 3:7). 2LOXY: “heard about them folks zelous about God without knowledge... MY RESPONSE: The last time I checked, lack of knowledge was not a sin. 2LOXY: “i would say it was like that ... because until a man is in Christ Jesus ... you can not fully know what God is all about ...” MY RESPONSE: True! 2LOXY: “aahh ... you knew ... fortunate you :) ... well you see ... you can do the "right thing" ... and still be wrong ...” MY RESPONSE: True! 2LOXY: “thats were hypocrasy comes in... MY RESPONSE: And? 2LOXY: “it took me finding Jesus to admit all that i knew was vanity without Him being my personal saviour and Lord...” MY RESPONSE: I have you ever wondered how many times the phrase “personal savior” appears in the Bible? LOL 2LOXY: “being saved without the blood of Jesus, does not work... MY RESPONSE: I do not know any one who believes in salvation without Jesus. We keep hearing this from sectarians when attacking their former denominations. 2LOXY: “you said so yourself that christianity without the Holy Ghost is not christianity rite ...” MY RESPONSE: Yes! 2LOXY: “well thats were we came from...“ MY RESPONSE: Is that so? 2LOXY: “one thing I have notice is that you seem to live in denial...” MY RESPONSE: Prove it! 2LOXY: “aaahhh you have saved all you life ... MY RESPONSE: What is that supposed to mean? 2LOXY: “so you would not know what being religious is like ...” MY RESPONSE: I know what it is! 2LOXY: “keeping up appearance ... counts ... MY RESPONSE: That is not what religion is; that is what you wrongly think religion is. 2LOXY: “i have seen people saam lewe in a congregation, MY RESPONSE: I have seen such people too. 2LOXY: “and well for them ... that’s normal ... MY RESPONSE: Unfortunately that is what they wrongly believe. 2LOXY: “drinking, clubing, fornicating, commiting adultery etc ... MY RESPONSE: Join me in a prayer for them, but let us not ask like the Pharisee who went to pray in the temple. 2LOXY: “but they "christians" anyway ... cos they were 'baptised" as babies...” MY RESPONSE: No, some who do things you mentioned were baptized as adults. 2LOXY: “see not everybody get it as you do ... but who do you blame for this misinformation?” MY RESPONSE: I would rather call it lack of information. 2LOXY: “the pastor? parents?... if we have the bible to read for ourselves and seek the wisdon and understanding of God ??...” MY RESPONSE: That is not what the Bible was meant for. Re: 2loxy, lenga2030 and the christian denominations Lenga2030 Number Posts: 1696 Last Post: 25.04.2012, 19:11 [ View User's Posts ] Thursday, 05. January 2012 at 07:53 2LOXY: “a man in bondage envies a free man...” MY RESPONSE: Not necessarily. 2LOXY: “hence he either treis to keep him there or get him into it... MY RESPONSE: Not necessarily. 2LOXY: “you livw in denial ...lenga...” MY RESPONSE: Prove it. 2LOXY: “the confirmation of one being a christian is an aproval by the word...” MY RESPONSE: Bible chapter and verse? ZERO! 2LOXY: “we are born of the word of God ...” MY RESPONSE: Bible chapter and verse? ZERO! 2LOXY: “who is Jesus, He can only confirm you in him if you are in him ... not outside ... hence He ought to dwell in the heart of a believer to confirm he is of Christ ... dat difficult to pick up?...common sense again ,plllzzz****** MY RESPONSE: First try to understand the word confirmation from the perspective of those who practice it. It may mean something different from what you have in mind. 2LOXY: “would confirming some one who is not born again useful? what is he confirming ...” MY RESPONSE: They never confirm people who are not born again. 2LOXY: “for all we know some people did it as a duty to "please" their parents, and want to get it over and done with...” MY RESPONSE: I am amazed by your ability to read people’s hearts. You always know what people do and why. 2LOXY: “they dont even have the witness of the Holy Spirit in them...” MY RESPONSE: Where is that stated as a requirement? And how do you know they do not have it? 2LOXY: “of does you bible not mention that the Spirit bears witness with our spirits that we are the sons of God..?” MY RESPONSE: So, when the Spirit bears witness with someone’s spirit you know it because you are the one who give permission for such a thing to happen. I did not know that you are a god who knows everything every where, who even knows what is going on in every person’s heart. 2LOXY: “welll, I did not expect you to understand either ... what i meant in short .... this is basically what you do ... you critisise fellow bretherens ... why, cos you were programmed to ... why? thats what you best at MY RESPONSE: Really? Get over it and stop speculating. It seems you are more interested in defending false teachers (I will show you what I mean in a moment). 2LOXY: “you critisesd pastors here, who you don't even know personally... MY RESPONSE: But I can see their bad fruits in you. 2LOXY: “but you all "christians"...” MY RESPONSE: Yes, we are one big holy family. 2LOXY: “because you don't agree with them?” MY RESPONSE: It is too bad when I disagree you’re your pastors, but every thing is okay when you disagree with me. That is what I mean that you seem to be more interested in defending your pastors. Why? Are they your precious idols or what? 2LOXY: “you were/are taught differently .... don't tell you believe what they believe ...” MY RESPONSE: No, I don’t believe what they believe. Their beliefs are mostly based on myths. 2LOXY: “IT ALL COMES DOWN TO DOCTRINE....” MY RESPONSE: True! 2LOXY: “the few years i have live ... unlike you sir ... i have noticed that the christians fight each other...rather than being unified in Christ ... they criticise each other, intimidate other ...” MY RESPONSE: That is sadly true. 2LOXY: “try to uphold one denomination above the other... and make all sorts of comparisons among themselves, which is foolishness.” MY RESPONSE: making comparisons is a form of testing all things … and the Bible commanded such “foolishness”. 2LOXY: “JESUS IS COMING FOR ONE BRIDE ONLY...let that sink.” MY RESPONSE: Halleluiah! [Post edited by: Lenga2030 on 05/1/12 8:02 AM] Re: 2loxy, lenga2030 and the christian denominations Lenga2030 Number Posts: 1696 Last Post: 25.04.2012, 19:11 [ View User's Posts ] Thursday, 05. January 2012 at 08:00 2LOXY: “Whatever man ... its obvious u tryin to ... looks like no bull ever entered ur kraal ...” MY RESPONSE: Do you mean that is the first time I am encountered someone determined to debate me? Well, partly true (on the determination part) but I have encountered much better debaters who concentrate on the issue on the table. 2LOXY: “I do knw its BAPTIZO dude ...” MY RESPONSE: Okay then! 2LOXY: “u runing out of ideas mbela,” MY RESPONSE: That would be a good thing for you when I ran out of ideal because that would be an ideal opportunity for you address some of the issues you have ignored so far. 2LOXY: “coz u scratchin everywhere man ... so my english is bad, am namlish and proud...” MY RESPONSE: I see! 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